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Interview given Dominique de Villepin, Minister of the Interior, Internal Security and Local Freedoms, to "France Inter" (excerpts)

Paris, February 24, 2005

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SECULARISM (LAICITE)

THE MINISTER – It’s an essential point of reference, a central pillar of our Republic.

Why? Because for centuries, decades, our country experienced divisions, religious quarrels which led to thousands, hundreds of thousands of deaths. And the 1905 Act genuinely ended these quarrels in our country, by establishing a simple rule: the separation of Church and State, a guarantee of the State’s neutrality, a guarantee of freedom of worship and freedom of conscience. This clear rule is incredibly modern. And when I see the debates developing in Germany, Spain, the Netherlands, I say to myself that we’re extraordinarily lucky to have an Act which, so very early on, took account of the risks of religious fundamentalism. And this Act gives everyone their rightful place, because it organizes our society on the principle of mutual respect, not with “combative” secularism as was the case at the outset, for example that of “le petit père Combes”¹, but with that of Aristide Briand, Jaurès, in a spirit of openness and understanding. And we can see this today, since it’s the core issue: does the 1905 Act allow us to give Islam, which wasn’t invited to the Republic’s table in 1905, its rightful place? Well, the answer is “yes”.

With the 1905 Act, we have an instrument which allows us to give Islam its rightful place. And this is why I proposed the creation of a private law foundation, which is going to be able to finance Muslim worship, i.e. provide money for prayer rooms, mosques, training imams, etc. So on these two core issues, for training imams and financing places of worship, the private foundation will be able to collect funds, private donations, donations from foreign countries, which will satisfy this need for financing completely openly without breaching the republican pact. I.e. what Islam will be able to do in France, every other church will be able to do, and can do. This principle of equality is essential.

THE MINISTER – When I arrived at the Interior Ministry, I wanted to gain a better understanding of a number of developments in our country. In particular, I asked the Intelligence Service to report to me on the risk, in some districts, of communautarisme or ghettoization. And we found that in 300 districts – that’s nearly 2 million people, 1.7 million – there was indeed a risk of splits along ethnic or religious lines. If we want to avoid this, which is a fact of life in countries following the model of communautarisme, we have to apply our Republic’s principles. What are these principles? Secularism (laïcité), equality of opportunity, gender parity, because I note, when I go to Lyon or Strasbourg, that in our country, because of religious differences, a number of young girls, young women risk being ill-treated because, precisely, they aren’t apparently sufficiently respectful of the rules of a certain strict interpretation of Islam. This is unacceptable, we must implement these common rules, and this is why we have to uphold the principles of ensuring a social mix, equality of opportunity and gender parity. We mustn’t yield an inch on this.

This is the whole purpose of the Act on conspicuous religious symbols at school, of respecting the Republican spirit in the public services – in hospitals, school canteens, swimming pools, etc. It is part of our fight for our republican values which alone guarantee our national unity. In France we have only the national community. So, as regards this trend, a worldwide one, towards isolation within separate communities, we have to realize that in France, in the Republic, there are no communities other than our national one. And if we were to defend the existence of different communities, if the colour of your skin, or your religion determined your membership of a community and gave you certain rights or led you to isolate yourself within that community, we would quite simply lose the spirit of the Republic.

INTEGRATION

THE MINISTER – It’s the problem every European country is encountering today. What we are seeing today in a mosque in the 19th arrondissement the British are themselves seeing in Britain, the Spanish in Spain. But we have an advantage over them: we have the solution. And the solution is the Re-pu-blic! We know that by honouring our Republican principles – promotion of equality of opportunity, respect of secularism – we are succeeding in resolving these problems. And what’s tremendous in our country is that, today, it’s the common aspiration. When you ask young people from immigrant families – I was in Aulnay in Strasbourg a few days ago – what they aspire to, it’s genuinely to be French, completely French. They don’t aspire to be integrated, they aspire to fit in. I mean when they come up against difficulties, because, maybe, of an inadequate knowledge of the French language, or because of social problems, well, what they want us to do is stretch out a helping hand. That shows you that the Republic has to be very active, by differentiating according to geographical criteria, for example by establishing priority education areas, or social criteria, but not racial, ethnic or religious ones. If we were to think along those lines – and it’s obviously the risk incurred with the idea of “positive discrimination”, giving something specific to someone because his skin is of a certain colour, because he has a certain religion – we’d lose the essential spirit of the Republic.

“REPUBLIC’S CADETS”/EQUALITY OF OPPORTUNITY

The Republic’s core values are based on the concept of national community, the idea that we are all citizens with rights and duties and have something of the universal within us. This was France’s great message in 1789. So let’s make our Republic flourish, let’s practise our principles in our daily lives. For example, let me take the case of my ministry: I’ve developed what I’ve called “the Republic’s cadets”, the possibility for young people from disadvantaged milieus who would never have had the idea of working in the security services – the police, gendarmerie, the fire service – of taking sandwich courses, from the age of 16 years, in a vocational lycée and a police college or fire service training centre – that’s what I visited in Strasbourg. This enables these young people to prepare the entrance tests for the fire or police service and, if successful, join their chosen service, and, this way, we have a republican police, genuinely republican institutions. We have to stretch out a hand, not on a religious or ethnic basis, but on that of equality of opportunity.

THE MINISTER – Of course, but it’s a three-pronged battle, starting with the idea that positive discrimination isn’t working where it’s been tried, and often has even been abandoned – it’s very largely the case in the United States.

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ANTI-SEMITISM/DRUGS

And then, of course, we have to fight against all forms of racism and anti-Semitism, because our Republican pact...

THE MINISTER – We have, admittedly, seen an increase over recent years. But we have mobilized. And in the second half of 2004, anti-Semitic acts were reduced by a factor of three. And above all, we are doing the maximum to punish those who commit such acts: last year 182 people were arrested for anti-Semitic acts (...). And we have strengthened the powers of the courts to deal with the perpetrators of such acts, with specific punishment for a specific offence. Once again, what’s important in our society and our Republic is for the rules to be respected. Everyone must respect the rules. Whenever there’s an infringement there has to be a proportionate punishment, and reparation and care for the victim. This is what I want to do too in the fight against drugs; it’s what I want to put in place in every sphere, and particularly when it comes to minors. Everyone must be aware of and respect this rule.

CLANDESTINE IMMIGRATION

THE MINISTER – We can’t know the extent of it quite simply because it’s clandestine!

THE MINISTER – Yes, of course, it’s difficult and this is why we decided, in the 2003 framework, to give ourselves tools and draw up a report containing all the information available from the Social Affairs, Foreign and Interior Ministries. And this is the report the Prime Minister is going to present in a few days. So today we have a number of criteria allowing us to know the present situation. For example, less migratory pressure at France and Europe’s main border, which is Roissy. 500 applications for admission in 2003; today fewer than 100. So a reduction in this migratory pressure. Increase in the number of persons escorted to the borders, even though it’s not enough. And that’s why in a few weeks’ time I’m going to present a report to President Chirac and the Prime Minister in which I’m going to make some very strong proposals, because the fight against illegal immigration is crucial in our country; first of all because we want to give those of our compatriots who are today in difficulty their rightful place – so it’s an absolute condition – and because we really must be credible in this sphere. I have just created a special office to tackle all forms of illegal working, I shall propose the creation of a genuine immigration police and interdepartmental immigration services where prefectures’ administrative services will work together with the security services – police and gendarmerie. Above all, I shall propose the establishment of a central immigration department so the relevant resources of the Social Affairs, Foreign, Interior and Health Ministries are brought together under a single authority. Today, we need this overall vision in order to be more efficient. But for me the great challenge for 2005 is to ensure a substantial reduction in illegal immigration in our country, because if we want to put our Republican Pact into practice it’s the absolute starting point./.

¹ From 1902 to January 1905, Emile Combes was president of the Council, a position equivalent to Prime Minister.