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Foreign Policy
Interview given by Michel Barnier, Minister of Foreign Affairs, on the "Le Grand Jury RTL-Le Monde-LCI" television programme (excerpts).
Paris, November 7, 2004 (...) MIDDLE EAST/ARAFAT/PEACE PROCESS/EU/GAZA/ROADMAP Q. Concretely, do you believe that today the Middle East situation, at any rate the future absence of Yasser Arafat (...) from the Palestinian political scene is going to open a new chapter, a new stage in the peace process? Can the Roadmap at last be reactivated and applied? And, very concretely, can you tell us anything about what's happening behind the scenes at the moment? (...) Are there discussions, preparations?
THE MINISTER Things had been marking time a bit, not because of Yasser Arafat's illness, which came later, but because of the US elections. And when I went to Ramallah in June and Israel a few weeks ago, everyone was waiting to see what was going to happen in Washington. Now things are clear, President Bush has been re-elected and I am almost certain that the Americans are going to want, need again to put a lot of effort into getting the peace process between Israelis and Palestinians relaunched. And we ourselves you asked about what was going on behind the scenes on Friday had a meeting of Heads of State and Government in Brussels. Last Tuesday, again in Brussels, I was also working with all my foreign minister colleagues and Javier Solana on a European plan, because I take the liberty of drawing your attention to something fairly new in the past few months: the Europeans are talking with a single voice in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, just as they have made a joint proposal (...) on Iraq, and we are now presenting a united front vis-ΰ-vis the stability of the Balkans. I'm seeing and I'm very pleased about it the credible beginnings of a European foreign policy. As regards the [Middle East] conflict, we're making proposals on the security front to support the Egyptian initiative, on the elections, democracy in Palestine and the reconstruction. And if you ask me where we have to start, I'll tell you what I told Yasser Arafat and Mr Sharon: with the first promise, the first stage which Ariel Sharon rather courageously proposed, the first withdrawal from an occupied territory, Gaza. So, let's take this promise, which the Knesset has confirmed, and make a success of it. Making a success of the withdrawal from Gaza doesn't mean just withdrawing from Gaza. It means making Gaza a first viable, stable Palestinian territory with a functioning port, a functioning airport, and people who can work and travel to Egypt and to the West Bank. Q. A first territory or the only territory?
THE MINISTER No, I said a first. Q. And you hope that...
THE MINISTER I said a first one, because for us, things are clear. The Palestinian State must be based on Gaza and the West Bank. So this is a first stage and we're quite clear about this, there is the Roadmap, which is still there, which the Russians, Americans, United Nations and Europeans agree on. Q. Supposing President Arafat dies, can elections take place in the Territories in the present circumstances?
THE MINISTER Whatever happens (...) we need to consolidate what's happening in the Palestinian Authority by a political process and the Europeans are ready to make a logistical contribution. Q. Are the Europeans ready to send observers?
THE MINISTER Yes, but not only that, also by making the organization of these elections possible by helping with voter registration. Yes, elections are needed to consolidate the Palestinian Authority's authority. Q. You talked to Mr Sharon about that?
THE MINISTER Yes, I told him that.
Q. And what was his answer?
THE MINISTER I think what's happening on the Palestinian Authority side is very important. Mr. Sharon told me he didn't have an interlocutor, he's refusing to talk to Yasser Arafat, and I told him that he had to talk to those legitimately leading the Palestinian Authority. So I think that the Israelis are closely watching everything that's happening on the Palestinian side, and the holding of elections, as calmly and freely as possible, is extremely important for the Palestinian Authority's credibility. Q. But for elections to be held under satisfactory conditions, Israel would have to withdraw her forces both from Gaza and from the area.
THE MINISTER Let's take things in the right order and be realistic. The first promise, the first commitment Mr Sharon has made is to withdraw from Gaza, let's ensure that this withdrawal is successful. At the same time, let's facilitate Americans, Europeans, and Israelis the smooth conduct of elections throughout the Palestinian Territories. Then we shall have reasons for starting on the new stages, particularly those proposed by the Roadmap. (...) IRAQ/US/EU/SHARM EL SHEIKH CONFERENCE Q. A moment ago you said you were convinced that President Bush and his Administration would now put a lot more effort into the Middle East conflict between Israelis and Palestinians. This is what the Europeans want, they said so again recently in Brussels. In return, isn't President Bush going to ask, particularly France and Germany, countries which aren't engaged in Iraq, for a stronger commitment to help him bring peace to Iraq and, if he does, what will you reply? What will we reply?
THE MINISTER Those we must help in Iraq are the Iraqis. The Iraqi people who have suffered a great deal for years have regained their sovereignty, control of their own destiny, as must be the rule for all the world's peoples. We haven't got a different attitude here from the one we have in other cases. What's important is Iraq's sovereignty and the control of their people and country's destiny by the Iraqis themselves. We are ready to participate in Iraq's political and economic reconstruction. We won't send soldiers, we have said so, and I repeat, either today or tomorrow, because we didn't agree with this war, but we're ready to participate in rebuilding a State under the rule of law, organizing elections if the Iraqi authorities ask us to. And this is also what we Europeans have been working on and on this we're unanimous the twenty-five European countries, including both those which didn't agree with the war and those which took part in it. On Friday, the twenty-five European countries unanimously proposed supporting Iraq's economic and political reconstruction. This involves training the security forces, training civil service managers, cancelling part of the debt and supporting regional development. Q. Is this what you will say at the international Sharm el Sheikh conference on Iraq which is being prepared for the end of November?
THE MINISTER I'm going to Sharm el Sheikh on 23 November with the hope that this conference will be useful. You know, we want to look at the road ahead I said this to Colin Powell, and President Chirac repeated it to President Bush , we don't want to look in the rear-view mirror. We want to get out of this Iraq black hole, which risks swallowing up not just the Middle East, but the whole of this great region and with it perhaps a large part of the world's stability. So we need to get out of this black hole, it's in everyone's interest. Iraq's instability, Middle East instability we were talking just now about Israel and Palestine is our own instability. Their insecurity is our own insecurity. So it's in all our interests, now, to make united efforts, but of course there are certain conditions. Q You were talking about unanimity, but forgive me, we haven't got the impression of total unanimity, first of all, in the approach to the Iraqi authorities. Apparently, twenty-four [EU members] had a meeting with the Iraqi Prime Minister, Mr Iyad Allawi, and the twenty-fifth, France, Jacques Chirac left his chair empty during the meeting with the Iraqi Prime Minister. Secondly, (...) Tony Blair has called for the Europeans to be more receptive to the American proposals and I don't get the feeling that France has the same position as Tony Blair.
THE MINISTER You're talking specifically about the unanimous agreement given to a programme to support Iraq's political and economic reconstruction. We all agreed to make this proposal to the Iraqi Prime Minister who came to a meeting with us. I myself talked about it to the [Iraqi] Foreign Minister with whom I had a meeting. As regards what happened before, there remain disagreements and perhaps a different approach, particularly regarding the troops which must or mustn't be sent to Ira Q. I mean that when Mr Allawi came on Friday, France's chair wasn't empty. Jacques Chirac had, as you know, for obvious reasons, to go to the United Arab Emirates.
Q. But frankly, isn't that the usual sort of politician's speak? Everyone knows, there's a difference of opinion and, after all, why not recognize it?
THE MINISTER Not at all, and I want to be very serious, on this issue as on the others in fact, we have to be serious. It wasn't a diplomatic visit, there was a burial, that of Sheikh Zayed bin Sultan al-Nahyan, who had, for a very long time, been a friend of President Chirac; he was a person of great standing in the Arab world, who had died, and it was normal, I believe legitimate, before the end of the mourning period, for President Chirac to go and pay his respects to those close to him and pay tribute to his memory. That's what he went to do and France's chair didn't stay empty, I stayed there and I spoke fairly plainly to Mr Allawi, telling him, among other things, that he had done the right thing in coming to Brussels to see for himself that the twenty-five European countries around that table, the European Union wasn't a spectator of events in IraQ. (...) FRANCE/US/EUROPE/CFSP Q. (...) What are the conditions and content of a [close transatlantic] partnership, given the past two or three years of strong friction between France and the United States, and is the United States ready to seek a real partnership, to restore a real partnership?
THE MINISTER I think it's in her interest to share the burden, responsibility for finding a number of solutions and meeting a number of challenges. There are two conditions for this. The first doesn't depend on the Americans, and I've never criticized the Americans for being strong. And, of course, America, who has just voted, is strong and has a president who is going to assert this strength. I've often regretted the Europeans being weak. Hence the first condition doesn't depend on the Americans, it depends on us. Will we have confidence in ourselves? Will we be capable, with the tools now available in the European Constitution (...) of being a global political player? Or shall we decide simply to be a sort of regional power with a large economic market? Personally, I've hoped, ever since I entered politics and I've been in it for some time now for a European Europe and a political Europe. (...) Q. Did you get the impression, for example, in Brussels this is the impression Europe has given since George Bush's re-election that there are still some tensions, some difficulties?
THE MINISTER There are still tensions, difficulties, different assessments of specific issues, because we still haven't really got a common foreign policy on all the issues; but we have the tools. Q. Is that the first condition?
THE MINISTER What I mean I've mentioned the Middle East, Iraq, Africa is that it's starting with the Balkans. We're starting to have the beginnings of a real common foreign policy. That's the first condition which depends on us, it's the most important one, it will lead to the second, which is that Americans must once again have confidence in this transatlantic dialogue which has to be political and not just economic, must consider Europe the second pillar of the Alliance. Alliance doesn't mean allegiance. The Alliance requires balance, mutual respect provided, once again, that we want it ourselves and that the Americans understand that this political dialogue is in their interest. So I'm going to work for this dialogue. (...) EU/LISBON OBJECTIVES Q. I'm talking to you in your capacity of former EU commissioner. Do you think it's normal and legitimate to revise the Lisbon objectives downwards?
THE MINISTER It's not a matter of revising them downwards, they have to be realized. And perhaps in order to realize them, rather than making a sort of medley of pious wishes, we need to target what's important. What is important? It isn't to have a single European budgetary and tax policy, but rather perhaps to exchange our practices, to see why some countries are succeeding better than others. Why have Sweden, Spain, the United Kingdom and, incidentally, both left-wing and right-wing governments are involved have higher growth rates? Because they have carried out structural reforms. Why do some countries, France and Sweden, for example, have higher birth rates? Let me dwell for a moment on this demographic challenge which no one talks about, yet is one of the most serious facing our continent. If things go on as they are, in thirty or so years it's almost tomorrow there will be 70 million fewer inhabitants in Europe and at the end of the same period there will be 140 million more on the other side of the Mediterranean. There will be a billion more in Asia. Q. "Have children", Michel Barnier says this evening. OK we've got that.
THE MINISTER Make children-friendly policies. Let's encourage couples to have as many children as they want, whereas at the moment they have on average one fewer than they'd like. (...) Another weakness: research. I think that one of our budget priorities and perhaps in this respect we should think about the Stability Pact criteria has to be research, our strategic military research which is inadequate seven times less than the Americans and research in general. Yes, we need to make more efforts in the new technologies, in everything to do with our competitiveness, through the European budget, i.e. a common budget, and through our national budgets which would perhaps benefit from greater coordination. (...) TURKEY/EU Q. Do you think we can have a good debate on the common rule of our European house, the Constitution, without at the same time having a good debate on its shape, i.e. whether or not Turkey should be in it?
THE MINISTER We'll talk about everything in this debate. I'm not at all discomforted or bothered by people talking about the European Union's borders or even its definitive ones. What question does the Turkish issue pose? It poses the question of the EU's definitive south-eastern border. The other day, I made people smile when I showed them a map of Europe which I should have brought this evening. Whether you are for or against Turkey in Europe, there's one thing you won't change, it's Turkey's location. It's there. A little bit of her is in Europe, a large bit is on the other side of the Bosphorus. And that, if I can say this, is her definitive location. What does it mean? It means that the question is whether we want this definitive border to be an internal or external one. Personally and I'm ready to say and demonstrate this I think that in time we're not facing the question tomorrow, it will arise in 10 or 15 years' time it will be in our interest, and I mean our interest in terms of stability and peace, for Turkey to constitute an internal border, for her to be democratic, stable and developed, rather than an external border, and unstable, perhaps less democratic and in any case far poorer. That's what I think. It's in Europe and Turkey's interest. But this question isn't for tomorrow. The question we face today is: are we going to open accession negotiations with Turkey the outcome of which can't be decided on in advance? Q. On 17 December?
THE MINISTER On 17 December, the Heads of State are going to say "do we or don't we open accession negotiations with Turkey which have never been opened, even though we have a dialogue with that great country?" Q. Do you want them to start in 2005, for us to say on 17 December "yes" for 2005?
THE MINISTER A date will have to be given, it will be 2005, early 2006. It's the heads of State who will decide. Afterwards, that the negotiation is going to take a lot of time. I can say that the scenario isn't written in advance. Q. As you say, the scenario isn't written in advance, some people are saying it is, for example Mr Schrφder says "if we begin accession negotiations..."
THE MINISTER Some people and President Chirac has said this himself in fact want us to complete them and then the accession to take place on their completion, on the conditions provided for in the Treaty, because it isn't, of course, a matter of the European Union joining Turkey. It's about Turkey joining the European Union and complying with all the conditions, including the democratic and economic ones. We aren't there yet. That's why Turkey isn't ready today. Q. You mentioned President Chirac. He has said "my dearest wish is for Turkey's accession", at least that's how what he's said has been understood and it has provoked some fairly sharp reactions within the UMP, which today is, on the whole, against this accession. Are these positions reconcilable? How do you see this debate between President Chirac and his own party on such an important issue?
THE MINISTER The President of the Republic has a responsibility. Firstly, to keep France's word which she gave in 1963. General de Gaulle was President of the Republic, Mr Adenauer, a Christian Democrat was German Chancellor, a dialogue was launched with Turkey, and I urge you to reread the speeches General de Gaulle made at the time, explaining why that great country had to be engaged in a dialogue with the European continent to which it is so close geographically and culturally, and, to a large extent, historically as well. We, and in the first place Jacques Chirac, have reasons for keeping France's word (...). Secondly, he has this aspiration (...) for our continent's stability and security.(...) Q. We've got three minutes left to talk a bit more about Turkey, since there is nevertheless the fear that Turkey's possible entry into Europe in the long term or distant future will modify the very nature of Europe. Do you find that a credible argument or a fantasy?
THE MINISTER But behind that comment or concern there is, of course, as you can see, the religious or cultural issue which for me isn't part... Q. There are also the issues of population size and economic disparity?
THE MINISTER Yes, but there are other large countries in the EU and let's not try and frighten people. All the same, here too, I'd like to say that President Chirac has made a commitment which will moreover be spelled out and confirmed. It's that, when the time comes, it will be the French people themselves, all those listening to us, who will have to decide on Turkey's European Union membership.(...)./.
Embassy of France in the United States - November 12, 2004
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